tv MSNBC Live With Kate Snow MSNBC December 16, 2015 12:00pm-2:01pm PST
best location. you'll be happy tonight watching yourself on television. so last night, so they do all these polls and it is great. they poll everything. you know what? it is amazing to me. the candidates go out and spend hundreds of thousands for pollsters, right? i don't. i got a lot of money and doesn't matter. unlimited campaign. and yet. think of this. think of this. think of this. so jeb bush so the point spent over $40 million for ads. he's at 2%. 2%. donald trump until this point has spent $211,000. i don't know why i spent it. i think i wanted to give some -- no. it's true. i'm at number one by a lot. by 27, 30 points. i'm a lot. so think of it. bouldn wouldn't it be nice to do that for our country? so, i spent the least. and i have the best result.
unlike -- right? unlike our students where we're number one in the world by far in terms of cost per pupil and number 28 in the world. okay? [ inaudible ] you're right. i think i like that guy. right? no, no. think of it. it is like the reverse. soy spent the least. i'm going to spend lot of money but i was going to have spent up to this point $35 million. i thought i'd need to spend -- what do i know? these guys, as much as i can't stand them, they give me all of this free publicity. no. it is true, right? if i put an ad on, people would get sick. oh my god, we had the whole program and now ads. we actually -- please don't put the ad. we called networks, please don't put that ad. they cover you for a full hour. and then every 12 minutes they have an ad for trump. no. doesn't work. so i was going to have 30 million spent up, literally up to this point and i've spent
nothing. we're ready to spend. we are ready to spend. we'll spend a lot. and i think we're going to win iowa. we came out leading in iowa now which is a great place. but this i love. this just came out. drudge. now, this is with 15 people. drudge is great. how good is drudge, right? great guy. he's a great guy. so they do these online polls where they have hundreds of thousands of people. so, they vote. somebody said they're not reliable and trump -- hundreds of -- do you think i have my people make hundreds of thousands of phone calls? and don't report it anyway if i win. they have these guys like george will. you fall asleep listening to this guy. george -- if he didn't wear the spectacles nobody would think of him as -- this is george will. he is so unfair to me. the worst. he is the worst. i'm not allowed to criticize
him. krauthammer. terrible. terrible. steven hayes, never heard of this guy. when my name is mentioned, he goes crazy like he's a boiler. part of the reason is they all said i was never going to run. right? and then i ran. and then they said, well, he'll never file form-a. you sign your life away. ugh. let's go. boom. i sign. then they said, well, maybe he's not as rich as everyone thinks and he'll never file the financials and then if he does it will be two years from now. i filed them ahead of schedule in less than 30 days. okay? almost 100 pages. and the press was down there. they said they'd never seen anything like it. they were scouring those things. i wouldn't be running unless i was really rich. by the way, you haven't read one report. bad, bad. i built a tremendous business.
and the only reason i say it -- not because it sounds ter nbl a certain way. i don't want to brag but that's the thinking we need in this country. we have 19 trillion in debt. we have $19 trillion in debt. we built the $43 million gas station in afghanistan and it doesn't even sell the right gas. okay? $43 million. do you think you could have built that gas station for slightly less? no. you look at the things. the money we spend a billion dollars for a hospital. you spend -- i mean, you could build seven hospitals for that. take care of our vets for money. we have such stupid people leading us. i used to say they're incompetent. i didn't want the use the word stupid. it's too tough and crude. i'm like a smart guy. my uncle was at m.i.t. a professor for years. they didn't believe they it. dr. john trump. i actually think he was there
for five decades. m.i.t. one of the great engineers, scientists. you know, it is like really good stuff but when they talk about us, they talk about us like do we know? let me tell you. these are the smartest people. these are the people that made our country great originally. these are the great people. these are the great people. and we're going to take our country back and we're going to turn it around and run it smart. we're going to run it smart. we give $150 billion to iran. listen to this. and this i just heard this morning. so we give $150 billion to iran. they self inspect their big site. in other words, where they're making the nukes. they're self -- can you imagine you call them? we hear you're making nukes. okay. let us check. they call, no, we're not making nukes there, you dumb --
and then -- no. but think of this. think of this. and then, they have the 24-day where they have 24 days but before the clock starts ticking, you have to go through a process. could be forever before you get there. and you know, the other thing, nuclear is so important. more important than anything and having a deal is good. we have to have good deals, not bad deals. four prisoners, they wouldn't get them out. i'm complaining about this long before they did the deal. get the prisoners out. 150. so now, the deal is done. and what do i hear this morning on television? that we're now starting a brand new separate negotiation for the prisoners. and they want many prisoners that we have over here for the four. no. don't. think about it. think about it. no, think about it.
so now they want to start a whole new negotiation that we should have had three years ago when the stupid negotiation began. you go in and you say, before we start, we want our prisoners. they say, no. we say, that's okay. you leave the room. you double up the sanctions. they call you back within 48 hours. and they'll say, you got your prisoners. think of it. we just gave them the greatest deal, one of the greatest deals in the history of countries. we made them a powerful, rich nation. they're going to now have nuclear. they don't even have to waste their time making it w. the money we gave them, they can buy nuclear. why make it? they can buy whatever they want. you don't think north korea is calling them, help, help, help? we'll give you money. we'll give you nukes. we are led by the stupidest people i've ever -- i can't even imagine. >> you have been listening to
donald trump in mesa, arizona. good afternoon. i'm kate snow. fresh off the big debate last night, you heard trump once again going after jeb bush for being low energy but jeb bush is drawing some buzz today, as well, for being one of the only candidates last night to take on donald trump on stage and turning in what are saying was his best debate performance so far. i want to turn to steve car knack i can with more on that. steve? >> well, that's right, kate. jeb bush stood out last night as practically the only candidate on stage to take on trump as you were saying and most aggressive in doing so. >> and he gets his foreign policy experience from the shows. >> oh, come on. >> that is not a serious kind of candidate. we need someone that thinks this through that can lead our country to safety and security. >> now today there is a report in politico that bush maybe considering announcing that he won't support trump if trump wins the republican nomination and that report prompted this
response just a few minutes ago from trump to "the washington post" saying, quote, i really don't want jeb's endorsement because he's a low energy person and doesn't represent strength, power and stamina, qualities our country needs. if he does endorse and support me at the nominee legally he cannot be on the ballot in many states so that would be the end of his candidacy. but that doesn't matter because he is mott going to win anyway. joining me is tim miller, communications director with the bush campaign. tim, thank you for joining us. donald trump is saying, look, if he wins this thing, he doesn't want jeb bush's support. would jeb bush want to support donald trump if donald trump's the nominee? >> well, he's not going to win this thing. the republican party has never nominated a candidate like donald trump with the liberal track record and i think jeb bush really crystal clear last night about his view of the chaos candidacy and will be a chaos president.
he said he gets the information from the shows, a reference to what donald said, it showed last night. he didn't know the nuclear triad and the difference of hamas and hezbollah. we don't need a glorified elmer fudd in the white house. jeb bush made the case last night and a case that needs to be made. >> when you say he's just not going to be the nominee and then you're not the only republican i've heard say that, but donald trump make this is point on the debate stage last night. two polls out there week, i know they're national polls and have them at 40%. your candidate's in single digits and the numbers for trump held up for six months so far. tough say there's a chance he could be the nominee now, can't you? >> well, they have held up and that's why we need a candidate to take him on. that's why jeb did that last night. i was shocked none of the other candidates on the stage given trump's polls willing to stand up to him. cruz, rubio, christie, none had
the courage to stand up to trump or for what was right and coming the unhinged, un-american proposal when it comes to a muslim travel ban, that is wrong and not going to make us safer and jeb stood up to him and told him that in front of the american people and i promise you, steve, the party won't nominee donald trump. he has a liberal track record. out of step of the party and you know that. you're a historian. >> but this report today that says your campaign that your candidate considering saying i won't support him if he's the nominee. is that what you're supporting? >> i think any campaign not doing due diligence an the ballot access laws would be doing their candidate a disservice. but the thing that we're focused on is making the case against trump and that's what jeb did last night and we're confident he's not going to be the nominee and that's what we're focused on over the next few months. >> along those lines, chris
christie on laura ingram's radio show today and she was asked, she asked him, i should say, about some of the comments jeb bush made in the debate last night and chris christie said to her, i'll read the quote here. he said he, meaning trump, looks like a serious candidate to me. jeb and i must have been watching different things. what do you make of that? >> i couldn't believe that comment. chris christie's whole brand is telling it like it is candidate. telling me that chris christie really thinks that donald trump would be a serious president, i think that calls into question his judgment about who would be a good president so look. i think jeb made his view clear last night. this was the first debate after paris and san bernardino. so we needed somebody up on the stage when's going to talk about serious solutions to dealing with isis. jeb laid out a clear plan to do that before the attacks and again last night and i just don't know what chris christie's looking at there. >> you know, i'm sure you have heard this before. it's not just the polls right now that are discouraging for
your campaign and for a lot of other trump rivals for that matter and also in your case the amount of money your campaign spent on ads, super pacs spent on ads and the last of traction for that money. when will we start seeing a return in terms of the money and in terms of the rhetoric you're offering now? >> yeah, i understand that. look. i think as we said that's the first debate since the paris and san bernardino attacks so i think it's coming in a different context now and what we have looking at the state by state races here if you look at new hampshire, we have donald trump in the lead. and then a really tight pack behind him of a big group of people and so, all of those candidates will have to make the case for themselves. we're making a case that jeb has the best record of the plans to defeat isis and by far the best ground game in new hampshire. working it for months now, investing in relationships on the ground and investing in the kind of organization that you need to be successful and what we expect to be a close race. and we think that's going to pay
dividends on february 9th. >> all right. tim miller for jeb bush's campaign, thank you for joining us. >> hey, thanks, steve. >> all right. kate, back to you. >> steve, i want to highlight a thing he said to you and make sure i'm right here. he said if you do -- you have to do due diligence ballot laws and he was essentially acknowledging that they have been looking into bush saying that he won't endorse donald trump. >> exactly. and that point and that statement we read from donald trump, that point that he makes in there about some ballot laws, you know, this is very different than a general election talking about a primary republican primary, republican caucus for that matter, republican parties can set rules, rules you would never see in a general election and state republican parties that basically insist candidates take loyalty oaths of supporting the nominee of this party no matter who it is and that is key in terms of that answer there acknowledging that it seems to be something they're looking into. >> all right. thanks for a fascinating interview and now mesa, arizona,
donald trump is still speaking at his first event since last night's debate. it is where we find our katy tur, covering the trump campaign an it's loud there, katy. how's it going? >> reporter: it's pretty interesting. donald trump is giving what is becoming the kind of regular stump speech talking about the polls, saying that he's won all of the polling for last night's debate, leading in all the national polls now and going through some local polls that say he is also leading. he hasn't been hitting the other candidates. he had one riff on rand paul and then jeb bush and mostly talking about hillary clinton. looking forward to the general election, almost as if he's already rolled over these other candidates that's ready to take on hillary and assumes to be the democratic nominee. can you imagine what i'll do to hillary getting started on her? it's interesting to see donald trump deciding not to hit rubio, not to hit chris christie.
washing over jeb bush and not hitting ted cruz. they have been in the unofficial alliance for a listening time and unclear when he'll attack ted cruz and we assume if he continues to rise in the iowa polling coming closer to february to get the attack lines out but so far donald trump the speech he's giving right now mostly about the poll numbers and how well he did in last night's debate. >> katy, you asked him last night about ted cruz and the lack of attacks between the two men. >> reporter: i did. i pressed him on it because he attacked every one of the other opponents and ben carson has not been attacking him first and he said he's not because he likes ted cruz and ted cruz supported him when no one else was supporting him so he's paying him back for that. they are going for the same voters, though. the same base of supporters quhch. when you go to a rally, you ask
who they like? they'll say ted cruz and donald trump. by alienating it the other it could be a base of support to come to them and playing it nice right now and donald trump treaded carefully in to attacking ted cruz talking about the evangelicalism, subtly questioning. also, questioning ted cruz's senate record saying he hasn't been able to get anything done because nobody likes him in the senate and that donald trump himself will be able to bridge a gap the way other candidates can't. kate? >> katy tur, thank you so much. appreciate it. we've got breaking news coming in my air and a little bit discombobulated here and we're learning of breaking news out of the baltimore. yesterday we heard the jury was having trouble coming to a decision this the case involving
freddie gray and the death of freddie gray. and the first officer to be charged. n that case. what's coming in to us right now is that the jury appears to be hung on all charges. in other words, that the jury not able to make a decision on any of the charges against the officer. officer porter. the first -- william porter, the first charged in relation to the death of freddie gray. we'll rye to gather more information. yesterday when -- yesterday when the judge, when the jury said this to the judge, the judge sent them back in for more deliberations. but that may not be the case today. let's go to adam reiss outside the courthouse in baltimore. adam, is the judge sending them back or is this it? >> reporter: it's not clear. they couldn't decide. that is major defeat for the state in their prosecution. they came back again. they came back yesterday. came back again today. said they're deadlocked. yesterday morning they came in asking for all kinds of supplies. we thought they were in for the
long haul. they bent back in. the judge ordered them back in and go at it again. we got a buzz about an hour ago. many observers felt the prosecution presented an excellent case, medical experts and showed that this is really his job to do everything that he could. the defense said he did everything that he could. it would be reasonable for an officer, two-year veteran, 26 years old. lives here in the community. he saids he asked freddie gray, are you okay? he said he thought he was okay. the prosecution pressed the fact
he didn't buckle him. in. he said he lifted him up off the floor and didn't buckle him in. he said he didn't because he was afraid that freddie gray would grab his weapon and he was worried about his safety. so he have a hung jury here. waiting to hear from the judge what that means but it looks like it's a major defeat for the state. what happens going forward? we have five more cases. they were hoping that if they got a guilty verdict in this case, that they would use him, they would get him to testify against the other defendants. the next case, cesar goodson, the driver, that's critical. he is the one charged with the most serious crimes in the death of freddie gray. now, just to give you a sense of when's going on here on the ground. there's a helicopter above. we do know various agencies, local and state have officers that are located around the city ready to activate as it were depending on what happens in, you know, in response to this
verdict. but it's been quiet. i spoke to a local leader an hour ago and asked him, what does he think the response will be here? do you think there will be more rioting? he said, no. they did the rioting back in april. on the streets here. they vented in the death of freddie gray. but they don't think anything will happen this time. that we will have to see but that's it for now, kate. we are waiting to hear from the judge as to what will happen now that they basically are once again second day in a row deadlocked. >> all right. adam outside the courthouse in baltimore. i want to bring in chief legal correspondent ari melber here in the newsroom and we have been following this for weeks now. this is the first trial of one of the officers of the six accused in the case of freddie gray. four charges, right? were up there for the jury to consider and learning right now they appear to be deadlocked on all four of those charges. >> right. this is a significant piece of breaking news here, kate. this is a hung jury as adam reiss reporting from baltimore, that means that here on the very
first trial of the first officer that the prosecution chose, what they wanted the start with, what they thought was their best case in these multiple officers that they say are responsible for the death of freddie gray, according to this jury, they did not clear the hurdle. they did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt. manslaughter and others regarding the injuries sustained in that van. everyone remember that is story and the events coming out of it and the protests in baltimore. so this is not just important for this case which can be retried. we have yet to hear directly from the judge and speak to what they want to do next and what they expect. but typically under the law here the prosecution has the option to retry everything in a hung jury because it's not a clear answer, kate. not a yes or a no. it is yeses and noes from within the 12 jurors to the point they couldn't get to collective agreement and that means mistrial. that means hung jury. but again, beyond that legal
fact that's what happened and the right to retry, this is, i think, as a legal matter, a clear blow to the prosecution and ms. mosby setting it up where they wanted to start with the stronger case and reporting on why among other things the fact that this particular defendant officer porter had made statements, the prosecution said was inconsistent. they said that basically they thought they could make a strong claim he failed in the duty of medical care or strap in freddie gray. those were some of the details, of course, we saw so this is a legal setback to the prosecution even if as is their right and even if in a hung jury they retry the case, kate. >> they have to be anonymous for a verdict. yesterday late in the day we had word that the jury said to the judge we're deadlocked and he said go back in there. >> that's typical. >> could that happen again today? we're waiting to hear from the court. >> we're hearing hung jury from katie wall and adam reiss in baltimore. it would mean, no, it would mean
that they're basically done and then you go legally to the mistrial. that's an officializing of it. the judge saying they couldn't get there. i want to be clear because people followed the cases often saying what does it tell us about law and justice in america? police oversight? this is normal for a young to say to a jury, take some more time. we already knew they had some open disagreement. they hadn't found agreement and then today they haven't and the judge may have said you've done your duty. you've really tried and you get a mistrial and retry. i'll also note another thing. we know the reason why people following the cases. because they relate to the controversies over policing and race in america. that is why they're national news stories and not local stories. what we know is incredibly hard to actually get convictions against officers for deaths related to the line of duty even when they're questionable or controversial. on average, five officers indicted in deaths across the
country nationwide an they're usually not found guilty. i looked at this, this past week for this trial, and found that there were more than five this year and none of them, kate, none of them resulted in guilty verdicts with regard to deaths. so what we see here is of a piece with a pattern and criticized but actually it remains hard even when you get a -- when you get a prosecution to convict. we will eventually hear, kate, from the jurors but i would guess and it is a guess, but i would guess that officer porter taking the stand himself and telling his side of the story and however bad it looked at a distance what he was up against that night and what he said he did, may have been the key in helping some of the jurors, some of the jurors feel there wasn't enough to convict. a significant blow to the prosecution today, kate. >> all right. ari, stand by. eight mwomen and four men on tht jury. adam? >> reporter: kate, it is
interesting as ari mentioned, it is up to the prosecution and marilyn mosby in court today and over the course of this trial, it's up to hear now, will she want to pursue this case? everything that entails. there's money and resources that did into it. and do they believe they have a chance a second time around? that's the real big question here. also, a scheduling issue here. the judge was hoping that that would end tomorrow and by chance it ended today. next up, right after the new year is cesar goodson's trial. scheduled very tightly. we have five more cases to go. so if they did decide to retry this, when would that happen? i'd be interested to know what ari thinks. >> ari, i'll put that to you? >> can you hear me? >> yeah. >> breaking news room. what you might see and we haven't gotten there but adam is absolutely correct. legally, supposed to set up a sequence of trials. so if the prosecution wants to retry this, and you would expect
in a hung jury that they would, then in that case you might see a request to try to change the schedule. in other words, this was a complex case of multiple defendants, regarding the same underlying incident. we are not there yet. it is unfolding and i think in baltimore and the country people watching closely as we learn more and one thing to happen is the prosecution could say, okay, that is hung jury. that doesn't mean we lost. we didn't carry the burden. we want to restart with the new jury. we want to start from scratch and we want to delay the other trials and one of the things that they could request. again, the goodson trial, the second officer on more serious charges, up for second-degree murder, was january 6, so you would as adam reporting from baltimore, you would have to delay that and set this out. so i think, kate, we have a legal schedule here that's now very much in doubt based on the strategy they set and then we have a larger public discussion because we have to watch and see how everyone reacts to this.
officials calling for calm. this is one case of many and the breaking news here in the hung jury is not that the officer is guilty or not. they couldn't reach a decision. we have the standards of a legal matter a blow to the prosecution and supposed to be the best case and whether they want a different schedule, we have to wait and see. >> all right. joy reed is here with me on set, as well. you have been following this for months now. this was such a watched case. i mean, everybody is watching and waiting to see what would happen in the first of six officers. there's been apprehension about what could happen in baltimore if the jury came back with a not guilty. for example. as ari said, this is not a not guilty and not a guilty. >> i spoke with people in baltimore and the first wave of protests in the death of freddie gray, i spoke to almost no one
in west baltimore optimistic about a conviction, quite frankly. there's a great deal of cynicism baked into the case people said charging the aufrtss produce euphoria on the veets of west baltimore and people honking and waving flags in the air and excited they felt there's an opportunity for justice but not too many people optimistic necessarily about it. so, i don't think that you should expect that this is some sort of spark that would shock people. and i think the fact that you did have a case that was tried in the city of baltimore, not moved to the county, the fact of a jury that was racially mixed, that you didn't have the set up for what people expect and it gave people a lot of hope and i think marilyn mosby, quite frankly, inspires the african-american community. >> can i interrupt you for a second? the judge officially has declared a mistrial. not surprising.
but just officially the judge now saying this is a mistrial. >> yeah. i think one of the interesting things that happens when you have a jury like this, five african-americans, four white members of the jury, you have a greater potential for there to be more of a clash and cuts in interesting wails. of course, william porter is himself african-american and grew up in the same neighborhood as freddie gray. they didn't know one another but this case is important when you go back and look at the questions that the jurors were asking when yesterday we were here together and having a problem. the jurors were asking for the definition of evil motive, bad faith and not honestly. that leads me to wonder whether or not jurors just speculating because, of course, we haven't interviewed or talked to the jurors but jurors in the courtroom who may have believed that william porter didn't do a good job in the transport of freddie gray. he wasn't driving him. he was one of the officers who saw him along the way at one of the stops. and maybe they believe that whatever happened wasn't on
purpose. it wasn't in bad faith. did he have a motive? >> wasn't evil. that was the deaf in in additfi wanted. >> the judge said we won't give the definitions. we have given you everything you need. you need to do that on your own and the other thing that's interesting the defense in this case, because, remember, as ari said, the big case is against goodson, the driver. the man who was driving the transport van. william porter one of the two officers who at stops along the way encountered freddie gray and either took action or didn't. the other is sergeant white. and the defense in this case, his defense, was essentially saying it was goodson's responsibility. it was actually the driver's responsibility to look out for the welfare of freddie gray. they set each other against one another. >> we think goodson would be tried next. >> exactly. one of the things the
prosecution wants to see is a conviction so that porter's case could be used against officer goodson. again, already in this trial, part of porter's defense is, no, not porter's responsibility to ensure the safety of freddie gray and really more officer goodson, the driver, recall that it is a driver who faces the depraved heart murder case, the charges. the most serious charges. >> adam reiss, so the judge declared a mistrial. i understand there's going to be an administrative hearing tomorrow? >> reporter: that's right. there's an administrative hearing tomorrow. he asked officer porter if he wanted to be there. he doesn't have to be there. he said he doesn't want to be there. so apparently officer porter won't be there for the administrative hearing. he told the jury, you have been diligent. thank you for your diligence. so, they deliberated for about 16 hours over a period of 3 days. came back twice deadlocked and so we'll see what happens tomorrow. very possible as ari mentioned
and joy has mentioned that the prosecution will come back as the judge ordered with a new date an they'll prosecute this case once again. >> all right. let's go back to ari for a moment. so they have declared a mistrial. you have been talking about what that means legally speaking. could be a new trial of the same officer. >> that's exactly right. hung jury is jury basically saying we don't have the answer and then the judge officially declaring a mistrial. this is over. this trial is over. it is done. the jurors released. game over on this trial. and it's up to the prosecution to then divide whether to pursue another trial, a do-over. if so, when? another thing to note for folks at home watching and making sense of this, people talk at the end of the trial, right? whether it's good or bad, make points. we see the prosecution sometimes come out and say, hey, here's what we are going to do on the courthouse steps. we are not going to see anything like that.
although we may see other dramatic things but not that because everything is under a gag order between the multiple trials. so even though this is over, game over, this trial, because it is linked to the others, ms. mosby and other people involved in the cases are not free to come out and speak openly to the press and waiting on an indication, might be some clerical or other indication to go at another trial or in the next court hearing and the gag order about outside con tktactc they may take a request to the judge. you would expect them to seek some way of getting a do-over. okay? you would expect them because they're not legally barred from doing so, the prosecution would want to pursue it. whether it's the same strategy or not, we don't know. maintaining the right to pursue this and another case, a different officer, and come back to it, all of that's at the
disposal legally because the mistrial means no answer one way or the other but it's interesting and, again, to joy's point about how this whole case went down, to talk about the people and the mood of it, an officer here basically took the stand and little we know about the jury looked closely at the words, asking for transcripts and sometimes didn't get and looking at the legal standards of was this something that was deliberately bad and in bad faith and i think some of them it's fair to say some of them felt there wasn't enough to convict on the lesser counts. that is to say they weren't convinced beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt there this was done to hurt or injure mr. gray. they had another theory of the case. and so the question then is, does the prosecution re-up this thing with a different emphasis or different approach with what they now know is a defendant sympathetic to some jurors? >> let's bring in on the phone jury consultant jo ellen
demetrius. are you surprised at all we have a hung jury? >> no, i'm not surprised at all. certainly, based on primarily the demographics of the panel we know, i think that this jury did deliberate in all earnestness for the period they were there, but i think because of the climate in baltimore since freddie gray's death, i think that certainly the demographics really have impacted how this came out to a deadlocked jury. >> and so, in your experience, if you were the prosecutor here, do you try again? >> yeah. i think that you do try again and i think it was interesting, i believe ari was saying that there is a gag order for the attorneys. what i'm curious to know is, does that apply to the both
sides going and talking to these juro jurors now that they have completed their jury service? that would be very, very telling for both sides to see what the strengths and weaknesses were of the testimony and how to improve upon that in trial number two. >> ari, do you know the answer to that? are they allowed to speak with the jurors? >> i don't know based on what happened today what the judge advised the jury. we'll work on trying to pin that down. it is a great point which is, you talk about jury consulting, you talk about basically what people in politics think of as focus grouping, people talking to people. this is an actual jury here so it would be very interesting to find that out. we don't know yet and we'll look at whether that gag order extends that widely. typically you talk to jurors and anyone else that wants to talk. this is different because the cases are linked. i would add the point, kate, we may hear from the officer side an their counsel. they have already been making noise they feel the attention on
this, and the discussion about potential unrest, prejudiced these cases in some way. that's their perspective. it's interesting to see what they say about the jurors an the process because they're going to argue that if their defendant here officer porter up for another trial, there should be care taken even though it's a case in the public eye and that's another piece here because on the officer side of the ledger, their view has been that there have been actions and they have said this in court that may have basically put pressure on people to feel like they should convict, somehow that's the right outcome and, of course, what we want and what is required of jurors to come in fresh, listen to the facts in the courtroom and tune out everything else. >> well, ari, as you know there were two separate instances where the defense asked for a change of venue at the beginning and right before the jury was ultimately selected and sworn in. so i think it is certain lay very important note for any sort
of appellate process in moving forward with a judge in saying, you know, here we were, your honor. we went and abided by your instructions with privacy, with jurors, et cetera, et cetera and yet we came up with a jury that was deadlocked. >> thanks so much for your time with us today. jury consultant. also joining us, julie zasmer following the story for "the washington post." julie, so close by. i know "the washington post" is covering everything since freddie gray's death. can i ask you about the atmospherics in baltimore? how deep is the concern that a hung jury and a mistrial leads to some more unrest? >> well, it is a mistrial. it is not a not guilty verdict. we don't know. there are a lot of elected leaders, judge leaders who have pledged no matter what the verdict would turn out to be to be on the streets of baltimore today talking to the community, trying to reassure people and
keep things calm. >> and in terms of your reporting on this trial, are you surprised by this outcome or, you know, did you read the tea leaves and see this coming? >> i'm not surprised. this was a very difficult case. basically, boiled down to two things that officer porter did not do allegedly. he did not call for a medic to help freddie gray and he did not buckle freddie gray's seat belt. on the issue of the medic, the defense did a really compelling job of raising very reasonable doubt of when this injury occurred and whether there was any time he cough called a medic. on the issue of the seat belt, there was a standard of a reasonable officer, did he do what a reasonable officer would have done and what the judge instructed the jury to think about in the deliberation and the defense said again and again, every baltimore police officer was not in the habit of buckling seat belts in the van
and people weren't injured without seat belts and with that standard, it makes sense they had a hard time saying, well, no, he probably didn't buckle the seat belt and call for a medic but was that a crime? they couldn't make up their minds on that very tough question. >> julie with "the washington post" thanks so much. let's go back to joy reed here in the studio as we start to see some pictures, not sure, are those live pictures coming in, guys? okay. those are live pictures, joy, coming in from baltimore. keeping an eye on that. as julie just said, there were plans in place that once some kind of verdict came down there might be those to demonstrate just to have their voices heard. >> yeah. >> as she said, that is hung jury, a mistrial. not the same as not guilty. >> the plans became a feature in the trial because william porter's attorneys argued that a letter that was sent by the school district home to parents and essentially saying that they would not permit any walkouts or demonstrations by students, porter's attorneys argued that
that in and of itself biassed the jury and the jurors might be parents to get that information. >> prejudicial. >> push them in to a guilty verdict out of fear of unrest, fear of students marching and what was so important of what we heard from "the washington post" is you have to remember what they're trying to prove here with the six officers. six officers involved in the arrest of freddie gray. three bike officers and then there were the three officers essentially the transport officers. william porter, the first of the transport officers to go to trial and two separate buckets of the case. the three officers, they are the three officers you see in the yellow outfits, bike officers that arrested freddie gray in the first place and who marilyn mosby the district attorney said had no reason to arrest him and something you see in the video and freddie gray is having a difficult time walking, a difficult time standing. so the question is, were the injuries to freddie gray, did they occur at the time of the arrest or did they happen in the
van? at some point put in the van, handcuffed and shackled but not seat belted in, whose responsible for him arrive at that jail in good health? was it one of those flee first officers? was he injured when he got into the van? did something happen in the tranport? making that first stop, seeing freddie gray in the van and allegedly asked to see a doctor, was it his responsibility to make sure that he got medical attention? when they get to another stop and the sergeant white sees freddie gray, has eyes on freddie gray, is it her responsibly then? he is a more senior officer and say something is wrong here. we need to make the man to the hospital and not the jail or the driver of the van? so the prosecution has this incredible burden to prove in the case of officer porter that created conditions for death and that he was aware that he was creating that risk. and that is actually the
smallest charge, the least of the charge carrying the least potential jail time, reckless endangerment. he had to know looking add freddie gray and saw the condition that he continued to take action that jeopardized freddie gray's life or health. they have a complicated case. six officers, who was responsible for this injuries? who was responsible for the death? so they had a tricky case to prove and then it's a police officer. they're all police officers. incredibly difficult, the ap did a study showing from 2005 to 2014 there were only 54 cases brought against police officers and these were shooting deaths, 11 convictions. >> in shooting deaths. >> that's in shooting deaths. >> this is lack of a see belt. >> right. >> very, very hard to convict a police officer in these cases. >> we are looking at live pictures on the left side of the screen. from what i gather, outside the courthouse. those are court security and then saw looked like maybe sheriff's deputies come out. sheriff's deputies in baltimore. honestly, this looks like a media crowd, joy.
doesn't look like a demonstration. it looks more like the press trying to get toward the courthouse there. i wonder if they're waiting for people to emerge from the courthouse potentially. >> that may be. everyone wants to find out the jurors what we want to know, whether they have been told anything specific here brand new from the judge now that he's released them an thanked them for their diligence. joy said, let's be clear here, a hung jury is a lack of an answer. but it is not neutral. it is not middle of the road. it is not 50 yard line. in the world of a prosecution, a hung jury with four counts like this is bad news for the prosecution. it means they couldn't carry the burden on even the lowest counts. let's be clear here, kate. not as if there's a manslaughter count and then lower counts and hung on manslaughter and came to an answer on something else. right? they were hung on all four counts and joy walking through
and narrow in on one for reportinging and viewers to think through, reckless endangerment. i don't mean it's not important but it's not as serious as manslaughter and the only question before the jury, kate, did this conduct create the risk of injury or death? that's an or. so legally, what the prosecution tried to do here is say, don't even worry about death. we just want to prove to you as an element of this crime that this rough ride, this sequence of events through these multiple stops, without a seat belt, for someone that you know as a matter of fact ultimately died, this created serious risk of injury and the officers knew it. that's a basic question. there's complexity. that's a basic question. they couldn't carry the burden on that. just being straight up here on the facts, octoberive, if i was sitting in the prosecutor's office looking at this. i would be worried about how to prove that in the next trial and even at the lowest level, they couldn't carry the burden for
all the jurors and that is why that separate from should the rules and laws be different? we have big policy debates of policing in this country and as a matter of citizens of baltimore seeing today, this jury couldn't come to a unanimous verdict or agreement on whether or not just the ride and the way it went down based on what we know about it did knowingly create that kind of risk to mr. gray posed by in this case officer porter who was according to the testimony his own testimony included involved in administering that ride and deciding not to belt him in. anything can happen in a new trial. 12 jurors making the decision, kate, but it is not encouraging for prosecution they couldn't carry the burden on even that charge. >> stand by, ari melber, chief legal correspondent with us. i want to go back to baltimore and just in a moment and i want to read from the mayor of baltimore saying this is our american system of justice. and the mayor of baltimore
urging people to respect the outcome of the judicial process. she says in the coming days, if some choose to demonstrate pe e peacefully, that's their constitutional right. i urge everyone to remember that the reaction is one of respect for neighborhoods and for the residents and businesses of our city and the case of disturbance in the city, the mayor says, we are prepared. we'll protect the neighborhoods, the businesses and the people of our city. adam reiss outside the courthouse. we have been looking at live pictures of looks like mostly media gathering outside and a line of sheriff's deputies, can you walk us through what we're seeing? >> reporter: yeah. there is an increase in security here at the courthouse. it's been stepped up. since this was announced. we have just learned there's one arrest so far and that was right in front of the courthouse. we do know that various agencies, city, state and local, have been here in this city baltimore city. today and yesterday. ready for a verdict.
ready for any possible outcome as a result of the verdict. they have been stationed all over this city to respond. so far, we just see that line in front of the courthouse. it's ri mained pretty calm. there's that one arrest. i want to talk about hung jury and mistrial. many observers, professors in the courtroom from local universities, john hopkins university of maryland, observing all week. i spoke to them and they tell me both sides here put on very strong cases. the prosecution put on an excellent case. showing that it was really his responsibility. he's a police officer at the scene. freddie gray was desperate. he'd asked for help. he said he couldn't breathe and needed help and wanted to go to the hospital. he wasn't buckled in. that's your job as a police officer according to the prosecution. to buckle him in. and he didn't do that. and he didn't call for a medic. the two key ingredients here for the prosecution was, he didn't call for a medic and he didn't buckle him. on the other hand, the defense,
also a very strong case on behalf of their client officer porter. starting with his own testimony on the stand. he was very likable likeable, t, to the jury. he was charming, he told his story. he did everything he could, even told the driver and the sergeant on the scene, i think this guy needs help. he sat him up, he was on the floor, shackled in. he also felt that this was a guy he knew from the neighborhood. this was a guy who would cause a scene at times, and he probably felt that he was faking. his mother took the stand. she said, if anybody was sort of a peace maker, it was my son officer porter. he was the kind of guy who would come in and be a peace maker. and he sort of related to the jury. he's here, a baltimore city resident. he's 26. so both sides really put on a very strong case and that might have gone towards the difficulty that this jury had in coming to a decision. kate? >> adam, as we look at that line of sheriff's deputies in front
of the media there, i'm imagining that perhaps the jurors might start to emerge from this courthouse. do you have any clarification on whether they will be allowed to speak to the media or not? >> we have not heard. there have been very tight restrictions. judge barry williams has run a very tight courtroom from the beginning. and there have been some incidents in the last couple days, where people might have taken a picture inside the courtroom, or inside the hallway, and he cracked down immediately. there's a very tight gag order, as we were discussing earlier. none of the parties can speak. officer porter can't speak, the attorneys can't speak. it's not just not clear at this point, whether or not the jury can speak to the media. as your jury consultant spoke earlier, obviously the attorneys are going to want to speak to the jury, to find out what was going on in their minds, inside that jury room, who was voting for conviction, who was voting
to acquit. what counts were they hung up on, those things are critical if they're going to pursue a retrial in this case. kate? >> adam, thank you. let me go back to joy reid who is with me here on the set. we're watching sort of tense pictures, but i really want to recap, joy, and make sure that people who are just joining us know that this is not an out of control situation by any means. this is baltimore. we're talking about the trial of the first police officer in connection with the death of freddie gray. the jury is a hung jury. a missed trial has been declared. we've seen security gather outside of the courthouse and that's what you're looking at. one person who seems to have a loud point of view, he's talking to the sheriff's deputies. we're not seeing giant crowds of people. we're waiting to see what happens next in terms of the emergence of the jury in this case. >> the city has taken steps to
be -- out of a great abundance of caution. they've deployed a lot of sheriff's deputies, proactively. they did send that letter home to students, saying essentially, no marches, no walkouts. they're not going to tolerate too much. >> they cancelled leave for police officers this week, just in an abundance of caution for this case. >> yeah. what you should not expect is some sort of shock or surprise on the part of residents of baltimore. because the people at least that i was talking to on the street when i was there were quite cynical about the process, until the moment when the charges were announced on may 1st by the prosecutor, i found very few people even expected there to be charges. there was so much frustration that was borne out of not just the freddie gray case, but a series of cases. not only of black men, but also black women who have been killed by law enforcement and nothing happens. when you had the charges filed,
you had that moment on may 1st when there was a lot of euphoria. but the elements you have to prove under law. and ari melber would be better to explain this than i. but what the prosecution had to prove was that william porter purposefully took action or failed to take action that he knew could result in the death of freddie gray. and as hard as that is to prove when you have an incident involving a firearm, you now have a case involving a rough ride, essentially an unbelted passenger inside the back of a transport van. you remember that washington posted extensive stories about these rough rides, about this habit of putting people into the back of the van, without regard to belting them in or their safety. there's a lot that the police department has been frank about that they need to change their procedures and the care given to the humanity of people who they're transporting. that doesn't mean you can convince 12 people that a crime
was committed. apart from reckless endangerment, there was also just a misconduct charge. they couldn't prove that either. >> there have been changes made in preliminary since the death of freddie gray, right? the police commissioner was fired back in july. there's a new -- kevin davis has taken over command of the police force. what's your perception from talking to people the last time you were involved? what's your perception of whether people think change is afoot or whether they think they're stuck in the old ways and there's still a lot of discontent? >> well, one of the things that also happened after the charges were filed, you had a slowdown by police, you had a reaction to the charges filed against these six officers in which the police officers at least perceived by the public to essentially put their hands in their pockets and said, okay, if you're going to criticize the way we're policing less baltimore, we'll police it less. you've also had spikes in crime in west baltimore. that's not increased the feeling
of cooperation or the feeling that the police and the community are coming together. you have a new police commissioner and a new commander, an african american woman, who when we spoke to her, when she was just about to take that command, was saying that was going to be her top priority, to create a relationship between members of this community and the police. >> community policing. >> and we were told it's working better. in east baltimore, a similarly impoverished community, where's there's somewhat of a better relationship. this case is going to continue to reverberate into the city of baltimore. >> is that the next mayoral race happening soon? >> that's next year. you have multiple contenders for the mayor's office. the freddie grace case is front and center and i think will continue to be. >> marilyn mosby is at the center of this case.
she's the one that prosecuted this case we're watching now. there's been a mistrial. the jury hung on all counts. we won't be hearing from her, right? because ari melber was reporting earlier that there's a so-called gag order in place, saying that no one can talk until the completion of all six trials of the various officers who are charged. >> exactly. the prosecutor could have, i guess tried them together or tried more than one officer at a time. they made the decision to charge them one at a time, so the gag order extends through all six potential trials. we have to wait and see if a new trial is mounted -- a new case is mounted against william porter, but, we were looking for caesar goodson, who is the officer who faces the most serious charges. he was actually the van driver. so no comments from the prosecutor's office. >> that's what we expect when we're looking at a scene like this. we've been through lots of scenes like this, where you
expect people to come out on the steps of the courthouse and speak to the media. that's probably not what we're going to see? >> right. and again, this was a mistrial. he could be tried again. >> i i was handed a statement from moseby's office. she said, due to the gag order that pertains to all cases related to freddie gray, the office of the state's attorney for baltimore city is unable to make any comments. we're going to have to wait and see, legally speaking, what the next avenue is here. >> and meanwhile, i think you cannot stress enough to those listening to the story how rare it is for a prosecutor to do what marilyn mosby did, to mount a case against police officers, in the case of a death of a civilian is incredibly rare in the united states. it's rare whether the prosecutor is african american or not. it's rare whether the prosecutor is an elected democrat or
republican. it's exceedingly rare. so what we see is the case here, not only against one officer, but against six officers in the death of freddie gray. an incredible burden of proof by this prosecutor's office that they took an action or failed to take an action that they knew could result in great bodily harm or even in the death of freddie gray. >> we're looking at all these live pictures and i feel like we're leaving the impression that we're waiting for something to happen. your sense from talking to people in baltimore. they're not ready to explode the way we saw after -- and it was understandable, the explosion after the death of freddie gray? >> yeah, and always important to remember the context of what happened in baltimore. what's called the baltimore uprising and the black lives matter movement. the freddie gray death case following a series of deaths, a series of cases. eric garner in new york, or mike brown in missouri, where people felt there was no justice at
hand, that nothing would be done, that nothing would be done in this case. and you saw peaceful marches that turned into clashes with police, or turned really into explosions of frustration and anger and rage at a system that's bigger than baltimore. and you also have to take into account what's happening in best baltimore. it's an incredibly impoverished area. it's a place where you see rows of abandoned houses, not one or two, but entire blocks. >> and great disparity between the haves and the have nots. >> the difference between the waterfront area and the way that it's policed and the resources put into it, versus the resources in west baltimore. so a lot went into what happened before. when i talk to people in west baltimore in the heart of where you would expect, if there were going to be expressions of outrage, people were not expecting even charges let alone a conviction. so i don't think you're going to see shock. >> joy reid, thanks so much for
all of your insight. stand by. brian williams is joining us now. >> kate, just to restart here at the top of the hour, 4:00 p.m. on the east coast, for those just joining us. we have a hung jury in what was to be the first of six police officer trials in connection with the death last april of freddie gray in police custody. kate snow correctly mentioned that some of the pictures we're showing on the screen can be a little bit misleading. local baltimore county sheriff and baltimore city police have surrounded the courthouse just to keep order around the doors, keep traffic moving, keep the sidewalks moving. and in some of these pictures we're showing, there's almost a one to one ratio between law enforcement and bystanders, protesters, and members of the news media. we did see live pictures of one man cuffed and taken inside the
building by police, but again, very hard to tell if there's going to be any kind of outburst or violent reaction following news of the mistrial. ari melber is here with us, and ari now, from a legal standpoint, what's the headline of this hour, what just happened, and what does this mean for the future of the case against the police officers? >> the headline of the day, is that this baltimore jury could not decide whether to clear this officer, officer porter, or whether, brian, to actually convict him. there were four charges, ranging from the serious -- manslaughter -- down to the more minor, reckless endangerment. we had a hung jury on all four counts. as a practical matter, bad news for the prosecution. we don't often see cases go this far against officers. we know from watching the protests in baltimore, over the death of freddie gray in the back of that police van, where he sustained the injuries and
ultimately his death, that this was a closely watched case. but the prosecution didn't carry the burden. why? i think looking back at the trial, officer porter's testimony in his own words was critical. this was a case about what happened inside that van. no one really knows what happened inside that van. mr. gray, who sustained those spinal injuries, he's dead. he's not here to talk about it. there have been a lot of discussions about it. and the prosecution made an argument that officer porter was among several officers who was deliberately trying to injure mr. gray, which ultimately resulted in the death. but officer porter told a very different story, one of a night where he was doing what he always does. no, he does not always belt in individuals or suspects when they're in the back of the van. no, he does not always call for medical care unless he deems it necessary and at the time, in that moment, he did not. not because he had any issue with mr. gray, not because he didn't hurt him, but because he
didn't see it was necessary. was he wrong about that? obviously so. we all know that now. but what we saw, what the jury determined, they couldn't reach this outcome. several jurors fundamentally believed officer porter's version of events. we would expect prosecutors here to seek another trial, and this is the first of many, as you were reporting, then this is a predicate to go on and try to win this case. but again, a headline on how this looks. this was what prosecutors thought was their best case, brian. >> joy reid has been following this as closely as a few have since this case first started. joy, two-pronged question to you, why try this officer first of the six, and second, talk about the makeup of this jury. >> yeah, absolutely, brian. this was the first case, but it was not the case that brought the most serious charges or carried the longest jail time. that's caesar goodson who was the van driver who actually transported freddie gray.
and so the theory here would be that a conviction on any of the charges against william porter would have strengthened the case against caesar goodson, who would be the next officer to go to trial. so that was the prosecution's strategy here. and you also had really important questions of where this case would be tried, whether it be in the city of baltimore, which is 2/3 african american, or whether moved to the county, which william porter's attorneys tried to do. the county, less diverse than the city. the jury is majority african american. i believe there were two white women on the jury, two white men on the jury. the rest of the jury, african american men and women. that's important, because when you talk to jury consultants, jury makeup, in cases involving law enforcement and african americans, jury makeup can be
very important. we can certainly not read into the hung jury based on that racial distribution. but it would be interesting to see how that jury came down along those lines as well as on the charges. >> joy, i heard some commentators say that a change of venue from baltimore city to baltimore county would not have been a enough if your goal is to get out of the pool of people who have seen saturation coverage of this. i heard someone say, you know, from maybe nebraska would give you a fairer look at this trial. was it ever seriously considered to move this out of the venue we're looking at on live pictures? >> well, certainly the judge denied that request and denied it more than once. i think when i was in baltimore, brian, talking to people, the idea of trying this case in the county versus trying it in the city of baltimore, was not really about seeing saturation coverage or whether the juries would have been exposed to the
case, it was really about racial makeup and about the attitude of people toward police, which was seen to be much more positive from potential jurors at the county level, the county less diverse, fewer african americans just statistically countywide than there would be in the city of baltimore. and that from the officer's point of view, from the defense point of view, a county jury would be a more officer friendly jury than a jury in the city. >> ari melber, this jury was out for, what, three days. they come back in. when a jury first says to the judge, we got a problem. we're stuck. we're deadlocked. the judge has a couple tools available to him or her. one of them is called -- is a language where judges have a little bit of leeway.
what do they say to jurors? >> one of the things a judge wants to do, it's an enormous task to undertake this trial. they will often say to the jurors, please make sure that you can't find any other resolution. it's not expected that people are going to come in the room and start out with the same conclusions. that's what a jury does. that's why it's in our constitution. so what judges will often do is try to appropriately push and cajole and say, are you sure? and we saw the judge do something to that effect here, when they first say, we can't make up our minds, please keep trying, please keep meeting. we know they took that seriously, because they didn't bide the time. they made other requests, some of which were denied for evidence that in the judge's view was not appropriate for them to have in front of them. because what is a trial at the end of the day? it's a story. and these individuals all heard a story and they came to
different conclusions about it, and having exhausted that. to your question, the judge now accepts that, you're hung, it's a mistrial, which means, no answer and according to prosecutors, most likely a do-over. >> they made one request for an easel and markers and post-it notes. that was granted. then today they requested a transcript of testimony. that was turned down. why would a judge not want jurors to pore over testimony they heard in court? >> the short answer is, we don't know why the judge said no. because unlike earlier junctures, we don't get a big explanation of the judge's reasoning. but we would think at this point the judge doesn't want the jury to rehear or redo what happened in the courtroom. so evidence that essentially involves them taking transcripts and trying to recreate a moment
isn't what the judge wants them to do. they're past that. the 12 of them have heard the same evidence. at this point, they know more than you or i, because they've seen it in the room and so the judge wants them to remember the eyewitness accounts that they have. and testimony, a lot of it is not just about what were the exact words, at the end of the day, especially when a defendant takes the stand, which by the way, is unusual, it's, did you believe him? and some of these jurors did. so that goes not to what's written in the transcript, it's reasonable to interpret, that goes to what did he look like, what did he sound like, did he strike you as someone who was intentionally trying to hurt this individual, who committed manslaughter with reckless endangerment and disregard for human life, or someone who made a good faith mistake on the job? so a headline here, this jury
deadlocked, this officer not cleared nor guilty. he may face another trial soon. >> look at that air paspace. you have these pictures taken from one helicopter above another. a point you made, case, so important, bears repeating, that this crowd is not all that it looks like from aerial pictures. i would note that all the law enforcement we can see, they are not helmeted. they are not kind of kited up or bulked up with any riot gear. they really are with rush hour upon us, trying to keep sidewalks open and streets open, and kind of an array of defensive posture outside the courthouse. >> there's not even a crowd.
there's a scattering of people. but we're keeping an eye on it, because people had been concerned, even local law enforcement had been concerned there would be a flood of demonstrators come out once we heard a verdict. but we instead a hung jury. neil franklin spent 23 years with the marilyn state police, also worked as the head trainer for the baltimore pd, he knows this area inside and out. i want to bring in neil. as you look at these pictures, it's exceedingly calm, everything seems controlled. what would police be doing at this point, though, just in case? what kind of precautions are being taken? >> well, obviously our police learned from the last time. so things like deployment, being strategic in deployment around the city, in different areas of the city, where we had unrest prior in the spring. communication, they're locking down communication. what i mean by that, there are many other police departments assisting with this operation.
so they solved some of the communication difficulties they've had in the past and they're just keeping a very good eye on things. and i'm also certain, knowing commissioner davis, that he's reached out to the major core of protesters to have some sort of dialogue there and constant communication there about their first amendment rights and how to go about protesting and making sure people aren't destroying property and violating the law. so, you know, even though we have a split jury on this, i'm very confident that baltimore can come together at this time. >> you don't think this hung jury, this mistrial, is going to fuel what we've seen in the past in baltimore. >> no, i think it's completely different than that of an acquittal. what it says to the people here, if they're really listening, is that we had a number much jurors that did not want to acquit. there were a number of jurors that saw a case here and really
see that something needs to be done. >> right. >> so that being communicated to the citizens of baltimore city, i think it makes a difference. and this is just the beginning of six trials that have to take place. >> yeah, and by the way, we're all happy to hear that. i should just keep saying that nobody wants anything but peaceful video coming in from the city of baltimore. i do want to ask you, though, you mentioned kevin davis, the new police commissioner in baltimore, and you said you know him well. what's your sense for how the police department has been able to move forward after the death of freddie gray? >> well, knowing kevin davis, i know he's going to attempt to put the right things in place, and i think, hearing some of the testimony from this trial is alarming. to hear that, you know, it's common practice to side step policy. policy is very important. it's there to follow. it's there to keep police officers safe. it's there to keep the public safe and to ensure that things are done properly.
so i'm sure he's going to pay attention to that. he's going to make some corrective measures there. listening to other testimony being that it's common practice not to seat belt people into these vans, which is literally a metal box on wheels traveling in city traffic, stop and go traffic. very dangerous for someone not to be seat belted in and handcuffed to the rear. he's going to make adjustments there, he's going to make it absolutely clear that these things have to happen. >> has that not already happened? >> i would hope so. we've had people injured in these vans in the past, way before kevin davis even got here. but i'm certain that he's already reassured that policy, but i'm certain he's going to go well beyond that, to look at many of the other systemic problems that we have here in policing in baltimore. when we look at some of the problems that are coming to light, it's not unique to
baltimore. you can look at every major city across this country, and we're dealing with many of the same systemics issues. so i hope that other police chiefs and commissioners are keeping a close watch on baltimore and are going to be paying attention to some of the corrective measures that are being made and also adopt some of those. a lot's going to happen in baltimore for policing for the good. >> all right, neil franklin, 23 years with the maryland state police. former head trainer for the baltimore police department, appreciate your perspective. i'll send it back over to brian. >> we continue to show these pictures from the air. we have sometimes cut back to pictures from the ground. this bears repeating as it's become so important with all the cases we have covered. note what we're not seeing among law enforcement. we're not seeing helmets, shields, or batons. we are seeing a whole lot of
baltimore county sheriff's deputies, and as we see a kind of protected car pull out, that could be anyone. could be counsel, could be the judge, could be any one of the jurors. the court clerks have a responsibility to assist in that travel and we're talking about narrow streets here. now we see the media running across the street to the latest distraction. and so this is kind of the situation around the courthouse. and to the control room here, where would you like to go? okay, we do have adam reese, our producer on the ground, outside the courthouse. adam, can you speak to the scrum that's going on across the street there? [ shouting ] [ inaudible ] >> okay, so we appear to have an individual on the ground and
photographers attempting to get pictures of that individual on the ground. and all those sheriff's deputies are protectively surrounding what may be an arrest process. what certainly looks like an apprehension of some sort, but they are locking arms together on the sidewalk there as an individual is, shall we say, detained. you suddenly have a whole lot of news media in a very small space, a couple of mosteprotest mixed in. let's watch our audio here, and we have sheriff's deputies who are moving as a unit across the street. joy reid, we have learned to be very cautious in how we describe things, how we cover things. the warning that kate snow voiced about a half hour ago. >> yeah, indeed. and i think that you do have, if
you just look even at the aerial shot, you could see that there were probably a lot more law enforcement there than there are protesters and media of course as well. you just heard that chant, which was the "move back" chant that became very familiar to those who watched the freddie gray coverage. it's the way that the police officers moved down the street. so that was actually the chant of, i believe, law enforcement trying to move the crowd back. so i think the important thing to remember, in advance of the charges, what people were demanding when we were talking to them in west baltimore was a process. it goes all the way back to each of these cases in which protesters from the black lives matter movement, and protesters more broadly want to see that officers are held to account for the deaths of civilians. and what i didn't hear were people presupposing what the outcome of that process would be. if anything, there was quite a bit of cynicism in the people they spoke with about the process, because it's so uncommon to see police officers
charged. so you have a combination, i think, of what you saw on may 1st, which was people being quite relieved and quite surprised that there were going to be charges. but not necessarily an assumption that would mean convictions. in this case, we simply have a case in which these jurors were unable to agree unanimously as to these four -- actually four individual charges against this first officer. >> joy reid, thank you. if you saw the aerial pictures, down at the bottom of the screen, there's a diagonal line of officers forming as the crowd break in the street. i believe those are uniformed baltimore city, if that's the group we saw arrive late in the circumstance. adam reese is now in a place where he can hear us and we can hear him. and adam, it appeared to be a scrum of people surrounding an apprehension or arrest. >> yeah, brian. just an hour after a mistrial was declared, things had been
calm. i heard you discussing how calm it was. there was a line of sheriff's officers over here. there's a line of baltimore city police officers here and everything did seem to be fairly calm. at some point, there were a couple protesters over there, and they seemed to be talking out of a mega phone. for some reason, this line of sheriffs rushed over there and there was a real scuffle, and it got very tense. it was very -- people were very concerned, because these sheriff's officers and they are all armed, were just huddling with all these protesters. i want to.c walk you in here ju a bit. this was where the scuffle took place. again, here are the sheriff's officers. why they're guarding this location, we don't know. just about 20 minutes ago, the jury left out of that entrance over there. they were rushed into two vans
and they were rushed out of here. we did learn at 5:00 that freddie gray's mother and attorney will be coming to the front entrance, which is over there. so why the sheriff's officers are over there, we don't know. they are guarding this entrance very carefully. they're not talking to us. and then there are baltimore city cops over here. let's talk to this person, one of the protesters who was here. let's find out why they were here. [ inaudible ] >> i think it's important that we keep peace in our city. during the month of april, i think that was a disgrace to our city. we had so many people coming in and converge on our city. we don't want our city to look like it's a bad place. we have enough issues, enough murders in our city since january -- [ inaudible ] >> the situation obviously very tense here. protesters have come out, just a few of them to, you know,
express their displeasure. they obviously wanted a guilty verdict. there hasn't been a not guilty or a guilty verdict. they are now moving down the street towards city hall. if you look down the street, just a group of about 12 protesters. i don't see any police or sheriff's officers following them, but we'll keep you posted and make sure we follow both that location and we're also waiting to hear from freddie gray's mother. brian? >> adam, thank you. we're happy to say that the story is and remains at this hour a mistrial, a hung jury in this case. you've heard the expression, cooler heads prevailing. that gentleman we heard from briefly was advocating cooler heads prevailing in this circumstance, so that baltimore isn't the focus of national media attention for all the wrong reasons as it was after the tragic death in police custody of freddie gray back in april. so we will -- our studio team stands by, ari melber, joy reid, and back to you, kate snow.
>> brian, i think what we want to do is just take a brief break here. obviously we continue to follow all the developments in baltimore. we'll be back after a short break. (vo) some call it giving back. we call it share the love. during our share the love event, get a new subaru, and we'll donate $250 to those in need. bringing our total donations to over sixty-five million dollars. and bringing love where it's needed most. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. when a moment turns romantic why pause to take a pill? or stop to find a bathroom? cialis for daily use is approved to treat both erectile dysfunction and the urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess.
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force in the history of this country, and that's what we're going to have. >> all right, so that was marco rubio today. and again, that was the dispute they had last night over national security. where the turf that marco rubio things he can claim in this race against ted cruz is to ted cruz's right, trying to paint ted cruz, he's used the term isolationist, more in the rand paul camp on the republican side, with the rise of isis and the rise of terrorism as a major concern for voters, especially republican voters. we'll keep an eye on that, kate, where that fight between those two is heading. >> and steve, i've seen a lot of headlines today saying no clear winner, no sort of one person to point to on the stage last night and say he or she won the debate. anything from the campaigns today who feels like they got the most momentum out of last night? >> donald trump had a big rally in mesa, arizona. when does he not sound like he
thinks he won the thing? but he certainly sounded confident after that. the problem for rubio and cruz, and there were positive headlines and potential weaknesses. for cruz, it may be on national security questions. the potential weakness for rubio, may be on immigration. but the overall problem, the bigger problem is, whether it's christie, whether it's rubio, whether it's cruz, you have so much competition here, so many candidates, potentially who could eat into that non-trump vote. ultimately, if they're all doing well, gobbling up a piece of the pie, then donald trump is sitting there with that 30% and that can win in a crowded field. >> thanks steve, for getting us up to speed. donald trump is back on the campaign trail, holding an afternoon rally in mesa, arizona, that just wrapped up. 18 million people watched, he
compared it to super bowls and dismissed jeb bush for calling him a chaos candidate. >> last night, so -- oh i had jeb come at me, you know, low energy. no, i'm standing there and all of a sudden i hear this, you know, donald trump -- you know, it's just like, he said it just the way his pollster told him to say it. >> trump also spoke about his friendship with the number two candidate in the polls, ted cruz. some of the people on the stage i really like. you saw last night that ted cruz was very nice to me. and i was nice to him. actually, most of the people -- most of the people were nice to me last night. i mean, it was pretty good. >> nbc's katy tur is covering the trump campaign and joins us by phone. coming straight off that mesa, arizona, rally. you spoke to trump last night after the debate, about that
detant we saw between him and ded cruz being so nice to each other up on stage. some people speculated maybe they had an arrangement. >> reporter: we asked them that and neither will confirm that they do. but it does seem they've tried to work out some sort of a deal, because neither one has fired on the other. ted cruz said in a private fund-raiser that "the new york times" got audio of, that he questioned the judgment of donald trump if he were to become president, said he did not have the judgment for that job. but in public, he's refusing to say that, refusing to acknowledge that he even did say that about donald trump. i know donald trump heard it, but he's not attacking ted cruz for that. and we've seen him attack other candidates for so much less, including ben carson, when he was inching up on him in the polls, in iowa and even
nationally. you saw donald trump go after ben carson viciously. but cruz, he's been very mild on. i asked him about this last night. and the words that stuck out to me, which struck me from what donald trump said, was that ted cruz stuck with me when no one else did. that's something you hear from a lot of people in donald trump's circle. he's very loyal if you are loyal to him. and i think he sees ted cruz as a loyal friend, if you will, in this case. so there's that partially. the other part of it is that they're both vying for the same group of support, the same voters who like both of them, and there is a worry that by alienating or attacking the other candidates they might lose those supporters eventually. so it's going to have to come to an end at some point, but not yet. we're still in december. probably sometime in january.
>> and just quickly, trump last night after the debate, made a little bit of a headline by saying he's running as a republican, he's not going to go third-party. some people said he could still change his mind at any point. what do you make of that? >> well, that was the news out of last night's debate, donald trump saying he's going to stay on the republican ticket. and this is really the best chance he has of winning the nomination for the republican party, but also winning the general election. running as an independent would virtually guarantee that he would not win and also virtually guarantee that the republican candidate would quick. but i would not necessarily hold donald trump to this pledge. he's kind of reneged a little bit on it before. so if he finds at some point the republican party is not treating him fairly, expect that to be back on the table, regardless of what he may have said last night. >> katy tur out on the campaign trail, somewhere outside mesa, arizona, with donald trump, thanks so much. >> this afternoon, the senate
intelligence committee announced that it is not investigating ted cruz for revealing potentially classified information during this exchange about the nsa program with marco rubio last night. >> the old program covered 20 to 30% of phone numbers to search for terrorists. the new program covers nearly 100%. that gives us greater ability to stop acts of terrorism. >> let me be very careful in answering this, because i don't think national television in front of millions of people is the place to discuss classified information. there's nothing that we're allowed to do under this bill that we could not do before. >> for more, i'm joined by mark murray. the deal was here that earlier today, a house republican suggested that they were going to look into whether he said things that crossed the line and were actually top secret, right? >> yeah. well, actually it was insinuated by the chairman of the senate
intelligence committee, who were saying that perhaps there was some type of top secret intel, classified intelligence that was shared in last night's debate over the nsa surveillance program. and we've seen marco rubio's campaign seem to pounce a little bit on that. ted cruz's campaign ended up saying that this kind of information, what he said in that very sound bite, was available in media reports. and i think this got flagged because we've seen allegations of mishandling classified information on the democratic side as it relates to hillary clinton and presidential campaign. but, yes, as you just mentioned, this afternoon, there was a statement by both chairman burr, as well as senator diane feinstein, we're not investigating this. so bottom line, this seems like a non-story. i think we'll have a whole lot of other stories between ted cruz and marco rubio in the
stays and weeks to come. >> thank you for the correction, i should have said senate intelligence, not house. but the context of what they were speaking about, as they were debating this national security program, we saw some real divisions between the two candidates last night. >> yeah, it was really fascinating. of course it does show the split inside the republican party when it comes to national security. so rubio has the more hawkish wing of the part, defending the nsa surveillance program, attacking a vote that ted cruz ended up making earlier this year, reforming that. ted cruz was on the defensive. and most polling shows that republicans by and large are that more hawkish when it comes to the nsa and national security issues. we saw ted cruz arguing back on immigration. >> mark murray, thanks so much. when we come back from a quick break, we're going to be talking about the fed raising interest rates this afternoon.
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so the federal reserve raised interest rates today for the first time in nearly a decade. fed chairwoman janet yellen announcing a rate increase of a quarter of a point. it will have wide-ranging effects on shoppers this holiday season, including increased credit card rates, borrowing rates on student loans, mortgage rates could be affected. the last time they raised the fed rate was in 2006, before the iphone even existed. so it's been a while. for more, i'm joined by chief economist diane swamp. nice to see you. >> good to be here. >> so it's been a long time since the fed made this move. and for those of us who don't follow the fed very closely,
what does it mean? >> there's a lot of things going on especially in the consumer credit market that i think are offsetting in terms of the marginally higher rates. at the same time that credit card solicitations are up, we can get home equity lines of credit because we have equity, and we know the high yield junk bond market is not as good, and it shouldn't be. but for consumers, the threshold to qualify for credit is falling a bit to more reasonable levels, nothing like what we saw before. but that's going to offset and mitigate the blow of higher rates across the board. and i think that's really important to keep in mind. >> so you're saying my mortgage payment doesn't automatically jump up next month? >> no. absolutely not. >> and in fact, what i'd worry about more in terms of mortgages. mortgage prices have already been, this has been priced in a lot, so we'll not see a big move in mortgage rates yet. but the real issue is the overhang of student debt, wage
increases, we need more of them. and also importantly as prices are rising much more rapidly than anything else, it's good for people who own a home, but it makes all the rest unaffordable. >> because we're in the middle of a fierce presidential race, we've had reaction from some of the candidates. bernie sanders said when millions of americans are working longer hours for lower wages, the federal reserve's decision to raise interest rates is bad news for working families, when youth unemployment is off the charts, we need to do everything possible to create millions of good-paying jobs and raise the wages of the american people. that's bernie sanders saying he disagrees with this hike. what's wall street saying, what are business leaders saying? >> actually i want to flip that around a little bit. i think it's really important to understand where janet yellen stands on this. and the idea is that monetary policy, they lifted their foot off the gas.
they did not hit the brakes. a policy veteran of the 1990s, she understands that low inflation and low employment can raise living standards. she's gone out of her way to say she's not going to raise rates quickly. it's because she really wants to re-engage workers, increase the participation rate, and she thinks it's within reach to actually allow unemployment -- he's willing to allow unemployment to fall lower. if it brings those people back out of the wood work, like we saw in the late 1990s. people who thought they couldn't get a job got a job in the 1990s. she sees that within reach. i think understanding that context of, this isn't a hitting the break kind of moment. and we have to admit that zero raise has caused some distortion. the junk bond market has collapsed now, largely because of falling oil prices, but also
because people are reaching for yield and putting too much money there when they shouldn't have. they're now looking at it more cautiously. that is something you want the balance on, and it's really a tough line to walk, but i think it's really important to understand where janet yellen stands and i don't think it really differs that much, where the idea of really raising living standards. >> diane swonk, thanks so much for the perspective. last night, during the debate, switching back to politics, the republican candidates made plenty of claims, some of them true, others not so much. so for a political fact check, we wanted to join political editor carrie dan. when you go back and fact check what was said, where's the truth? >> carly fiorina is under some pressure after naming a series of generals who were dismissed after a series of disagreements with the administration. mccrystal and pet ray yas.
one of the generals she named left his position in 2003 before obama was president. so that's getting picked up certainly in social media and other places. but even a more important example maybe be pet rayas, who was dismissed because having an affair and sharing classified information with the woman he had the affair with, not because of disagreements with the administration. and our friends have rated fiorina's statement as mostly false. another statement that's gotten a little bit of pickup, is senator ted cruz of texas, who indicated during the debate last night that the fbi director, james comey, had said that syrian refugees could not be appropriately vetted. what really happened is that the fbi director had told congress during testimony on december 9th, that he could not personally vet every single syrian refugee that came in.
comey has defended the practice of vetting syrian refugees, saying, yes, there are always risks to bringing in new refugees from abroad, but the process is getting better. so those two examples of claims made last night that don't exactly meet the criteria of being mostly true. >> and jeb bush, let's listen to what he said and then we'll talk about it. >> two months ago, donald trump said that isis was not our fight. just two months ago. he said that hillary clinton would be a great negotiator with iran. and he gets his foreign policy experience from the shows. >> carrie, where's the fact check on that? >> we saw jub besh coming out today of donald trump making those comments from two months ago, in which he indicated syria and russia should be taking the fight to isis. certainly suggesting that he believes that those two other countries should be taking the lead, not americans against isis. so with video evidence, i think jeb bush campaign is feeling
confident about that claim today. >> carrie, thanks so much for all of that. and just to note, you're looking at that box down on the right side of your screen. we are awaiting a press conference out of baltimore following the mistrial declared in the case of one of the first officers, the first officer to be tried in the case of freddie gray's death. that's william porter. as we've been reporting, a hung jury, a mistrial declared there, we're waiting for the mayor of baltimore, stephanie rawlings-blake, and the police commissioner kevin dafevis expected to appear anytime. we'll jump to that as soon as it starts. last night's debate, on foreign policy, on military strategy and the best way to fight isis and protect the country from future terror attacks. listen to this exchange between ted cruz and marco rubio. >> you know, the notion marco is suggesting, that somehow he also has tossed more than a few insults this direction, let's be
absolutely clear. isis and radical islamic terrorism will face no more determined foe than i will be. we will utterly destroy them by targeting the bad guys. and one of the problems with marco's foreign policy, he's far too often supported hillary clinton and barack obama undermining government nss the middle east that have helped radical islamic terrorists. we need to focus on killing the bad guys not getting stuck in middle eastern civil wars. >> hillary clinton and barack obama's strategy is to lead from behind. it sounds like what he's outlining is not to lead at all. we cannot continue to outsource foreign policy. we must lead. we are the most powerful nation in the world, we need to begin to act like this again. >> joining me now from istanbul, turkey, richard engel. richard, i'm sure you were watching from over there, this debate last night. it seemed like there was a real divide. and actually some really
interesting foreign policy discussions last night between the more new conservative candidates like marco rubio and the libertarian leaning like rand paul. as you listened to it from your vantage point as our chief foreign correspondent, what did you hear? >> well, i think at this stage, it's too soon to determine what any of their real policies would be. a lot of them were talking tough and saying how everything would be different under their leadership. and criticizing this administration for not leading. for leading from behind, as you just heard in that exchange. and people talked about how they were going to destroy isis and target the bad guys. right now, the u.s. is targeting the bad guys. this administration has done more drone attacks than any in history. many more than the past administration. so i think there wasn't a lot of specifics, but what they are talking about is how they're
going to be much more aggressive, much more leadership. does that mean more interventionist? there seems to be a divide among republicans. and this is a classic divide in presidential politics. do you try and manage foreign problems, or do you decide that it is the u.s.'s role to solve problems? i think that's the key divide we've seen in between the bush administration and the obama administration. there were problems abroad. and the bush administration thought it was the u.s.'s role to solve the problems of the middle east, and president obama's tried to avoid the problems of the middle east, and unfortunately, neither of those policies has worked so far. >> and last night, we heard donald trump very forcefully say that he thought mistakes were made in our intervention in iraq. he talked about a waste of billions of dollars. from everything donald trump has said so far, richard, can you sense whether it would be a much
different foreign policy under donald trump versus barack obama? >> i can only imagine that it would be different. but it's hard to know really where donald trump is coming from. it really depends on the day and which donald trump wakes up in the morning from the one who says that iraq was a mistake, to the one who says the borders should be closed and there should be no muslims allowed into the united states. that together suggests a very isolationist policy. perhaps that's where this is going. that wouldn't be, however, the kind of america must lead from the front policy, that he seems to suggest at the same time. so if you look at what he says, close the borders, no muslims in, iraq was bad, okay, that's an isolationist policy. so how do you be isolationist and also lead from the front? so i really frankly even watching these debates and
having listened to the candidates talk about foreign policy for some time, i honestly don't think i could put my finger on where any of them really stand on foreign policy and what any of them would really do on day one, faced with the enormous problems in europe, in the middle east. we're now approaching the end of the year and i was just trying to think today of what are the major challenges that we're going to face in 2016? and they're enormous. migration crisis into europe, the ongoing isis problem. does the u.s. get sucked deeper into the wars in iraq and syria? how do you contain russia now that russia is feeling aggressive and feeling threatened by lower oil prices? many, many problems are going to face our country and the world in 2016. and frankly, after having listened to all that they've said, i'm not exactly sure how any of them would address these issues? >> and quickly, a lot of talk last night about one man, bashar
al assad, the dictator of syria and whether he needs to go, or whether he can stay. how did you sort all that out? richard, i'm so sorry, i asked the question and then i have to -- we have to stop because the bottom of our screen, we're watching baltimore, a press conference just beginning now, with an update on the mistrial declared in the first officer tried in the death of freddie gray. >> good afternoon. earlier today, the jury in the criminal case of officer william porter, ended its deliberations without being able to reach a unanimous verdict. all of us, if we believe in justice, must have respect for the outcome of the judicial process. this is our american system of justice.
12 baltimore city residents answered the solemn call to serve. they listened to the evidence presented and they rendered a decision. if some choose to protest, they must peacefully demonstrate. that is their right. but i also want to be very, very clear about any potential disturbances in our city. we are prepared to respond. we will protect our residents. we will protect our neighborhoods, our businesses, and we will protect the safety of our first responders. i urge everyone to remember that collectively, our reaction needs to be one of respect for our neighborhoods. and for the residents and businesses of our city and for those who have answered the call to serve and protect, we will not and candidate be defined by
the unrest of last spring. as a city, as a community, we are stronger, and we are united to be better than what some display to the world in the spring. for the past eight months, we have worked relentlessly to unite baltimore with a resolve to have peace in our streets. we have a chance to show the country how to be heard peacefully, respectfully, and effectively. i know that as a community, we are up to the task. thank you. >> thank you, mayor. for the protesters, and there are certainly protesters out on our streets right now, and there will be in the days to come. we respect the right of americans to protest. protesters who are lawfully assembled, have a friend in the baltimore police department. we are here to serve as
peacekeepers quite frankly. we respect the right to protest, and we respect protesters and what they have meant for so many years in this great country of ours. and those protesters who are lawfully assembled, again, will find that our police department respects them and will do everything we can to afford them the ability to protest in this city. folks who choose to commit crimes and hurt people and break things and harm people are no longer protesters. you lose your ability to call yourself a protester when you choose to harm people and destroy property. so i think that's something we've spoken about for a few months now. i believe the vast majority of folks quite frankly understand that very, very well. we too respect the criminal justice process in this country, and we exist to protect it. and we pledge to this city, both our police department and our
fire department, we have fire chief niles ford here with us today, our pledge to the folks in baltimore is one of public safety. we're here to protect, we're here to serve, and we take that responsibility very, very seriously. thank you. >> who's up next? >> did anyone have any brief questions? >> mr. davis, you had said that you were monitoring social media on april 27th. is there any signs to a disturbance that you're monitoring on social media now? >> we continue to monitor social media. we have a pretty robust system in place, to make sure we have every capacity available to identify things that we should know about. and right now, there's nothing that concerns us, nothing that has been brought to our attention at this moment that doesn't give us the impression of any type of wrongdoing whatsoever. >> commander, i know your
comments may be brief in what you can say, or limited in what you can say. but one of your officers in his trial now declared a mistrial, what's your reaction to that? >> well, my reaction is it's part of this process in this great american criminal justice process. there are many americans who think it's imperfect, our criminal justice process and maybe it is imperfect, but it sure beats what comes in second. so i think we all have to respect the process. the process is ongoing. it's not the last time we'll talk about it, and i think we just have to be consistent, measured and thoughtful as we go forward, because baltimoreans need to know that their police department, of all groups of people, have to respect the criminal justice process, and we do. >> commissioner, officer porter -- [ inaudible ] >> right. he remains suspended without pay. >> any other questions? >> can anyone speak to the arrest that was made outside of the courthouse? >> i guess briefly. we have many, many partners
here. i'll say one thing about maryland law enforcement. there's no other place in the country, and i'm biased, that does this thing better than maryland public safety. we really have come together as a team to ensure that this great city is protected. i do know that the sheriff's department has made a couple of arrests. i'm not sure of the exact nature of those arrests. i'm sure that's something they'll be addressing as the night moves on. >> -- in west baltimore tonight? >> we have many strategies in place, in west baltimore, east baltimore, north and south, to ensure that the peace is kept. i intend to visit best baltimore later tonight. there's been groups of faith-based folks, holding hands, speaking with one another, saying prayers for this great city and i intend to join them later tonight as a show of unity and a show of peace.